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Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 25 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1578<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
T4: Cluster Skills<BR>
re: England<BR>
Re: Christmas and snow.<BR>
Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
Geog<BR>
Re: WW2 casualties<BR>
New Flash!<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: New Flash!<BR>
Re: War of 1812 (Getting a Bit Silly)<BR>
The US and Treaty Obligations (was: Re: England)<BR>
Re: Santa in the 3rd Imperium?<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: Geog<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
Re: Geog<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:38:16 -0800<BR>
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com><BR>
Subject: T4: Cluster Skills<BR>
<BR>
Hello Again All;<BR>
If a character rolls a cluster group, does the player have to roll or<BR>
choose the sub skill out of the cluster, or do they get all the sub<BR>
skills?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Again & Merry Christmas!   *< :})<BR>
- --<BR>
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California<BR>
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com<BR>
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only<BR>
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people<BR>
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley<BR>
<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may<BR>
not be the opinion of my school or Internet service provider. For that<BR>
matter, it may not be your opinion, but deal with it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:49:00 -0500<BR>
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: England<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
>>Doesn't what uniforms the bodies are wearing, what matters is whose flag<BR>
>>gets planted on top of the heap.<BR>
><BR>
>Is that really the important thing?<BR>
<BR>
Once the shooting starts, that's the most important thing.  You get out of<BR>
the Army's way and let it do its job, which is breaking things and hurting<BR>
people.<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
Sounds like the original post was more cynical than that.<BR>
<BR>
What matters most in the war is that your people be the last people<BR>
standing. Even if that means suckering someone else into making<BR>
a pile of their own dead on your behalf (Russia for England's WW2<BR>
benefit, Taiwan's current apparent willingness to fight mainland China<BR>
to the last drop of American blood...). <BR>
<BR>
A noisome kind of praticality to that. As long as your "friends" are OK <BR>
with the idea. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 16:00:30 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Christmas and snow.<BR>
<BR>
> > ObTRAV: A cultural event from one world is celebrated on another world,<BR>
with<BR>
> > stange/funny results. example , running naked in a Tainted atmosphere or<BR>
> > whatever.<BR>
><BR>
> No doubt, the original world's atmospheric taint was a low concentration<BR>
> of nitrous oxide.  You'd want to have a "dedicated masker", someone who<BR>
> keeps his/her/its filter mask on while the other celebrants are<BR>
> cavorting, and puts filter masks on celebrants who keel over.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking of the "ritual" from Frank Herbert's "The Jesus Incident"<BR>
myself.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:01:20 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
><BR>
>>> > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating<BR>
>>> >over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.<BR>
...<BR>
> I came up with an in-depth comment about inernational trade here but in<BR>
>reality it comes down to "No one is gloating, get real"<BR>
<BR>
  Well, the quote in question is Vietnam War-era. ObTrav, does anyone<BR>
think that the Solomani have forgottten or forgiven?  (hmm, no doubt<BR>
there's a school of thought in the 3I that says so...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 16:11:49 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
> Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
> >>>>>>>><BR>
> Though I don't see why you're holding up the DC10 for comparison, it was a<BR>
> crap plane, a complete maintenance nightmare, and not particualry nice for<BR>
> passengers either.<BR>
><BR>
> Do you know how often the doors fell off those things ?<BR>
> >>>>>>>><BR>
> Never flew in a DC-10...only flown a handful of times. Please point<BR>
> your "you" at the commentator quoted if there are details not to your<BR>
liking.<BR>
> Not to say the details shouldn't be analyzed, but it's important to keep<BR>
> the origin of quotes in mind (IMO).<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, Walt, I should have read it better.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:03:41 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Geog<BR>
<BR>
>>The Orinoko R<BR>
><BR>
>That was the only one that gave me pause, mainly because I usually see that<BR>
>spelled with a c rather than a k.<BR>
><BR>
>Drains through Venezuela, IINM.<BR>
<BR>
Score one for Doug! Spellings of non-english names will often differ from<BR>
atlas to atlas. Not to mention the fact that I am dyslexic enough to have<BR>
to sound things out, memorize by spoen name, and then try to recreate the<BR>
spelling from sound. And to think, this dyslexic, ADHD, who nearly flunked<BR>
out his 9th grade year, is now a substitute teacher, has a BA in History<BR>
(With honors in history - member Phi Alpha Theta, Alpha Beta Gamma<BR>
Chapter), and reads voraciously.<BR>
<BR>
>>They should know what the six flags over Texas are, and why they are<BR>
>>important.<BR>
><BR>
>"Cause dude!  That's where the roller coasters are!!!"<BR>
<BR>
Try the six constituent states of the Republic of Tejas.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:15:06 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: WW2 casualties<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: England... [WWII Casaulties]<BR>
...<BR>
>I'd just like to note that over the years the reported<BR>
>number of USSR deaths has climbed: Stalin said it was<BR>
>7 million, Krushchev 17 million, Gorbachev 27 million.<BR>
>Note that at the levels of millions of deaths you<BR>
>don't get well-documented, named corpses. ALl you can<BR>
>do is say, what was the population pre-war, and what<BR>
>was the population afterwards, how many are missing?<BR>
>The tendency has been for the soviets to attribute<BR>
>many of the deaths of the purges and mass deportations<BR>
>(eg of the Chechens) of the 30s to the war.<BR>
<BR>
  As stated, we may never know for sure. Clearly, however, the 7 million<BR>
figure was laughably low, and we can only conclude that Stalin did not <BR>
want to advertise widely just how badly weakened the Soviet Union was.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:13:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: New Flash!<BR>
<BR>
Terra<BR>
Day 359, year <garble><BR>
<BR>
COAC reports a small fast moving sensor contact depart the northern<BR>
polar region and south towards the populated regions of North America.<BR>
Target has no grav or neutrino signature, and low thermal signature.<BR>
It is flying nap of the earth and making frequent, brief stops.<BR>
<BR>
Fighters dispatched to intercept re[port a Red sled like object drawn<BR>
by nine reindeer. Pilot is Humanoid, dressed in red and white.<BR>
<BR>
Upon being challenged, the following message was received:<BR>
<BR>
"Merry Christmas to all!"<BR>
<BR>
Upon recipt of IFF fighters have redeployed to provide escort to St.<BR>
Nick on his annual charity mission.<BR>
<BR>
Merry Christmas, everyone!<BR>
<BR>
<inspired by a "news flash" that just came over the radio><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:00:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Dear Folks -<BR>
><BR>
> Thomas wrote:<BR>
>>Just a note. Cattle ranches here in Texas used to measured in RI's.<BR>
><BR>
> The Aussie one I heard was the Texan bragging about his 800-acre property, <BR>
> and<BR>
> asking the Aussie how big his farm was:<BR>
> Central Aussie farmer: "One hundred..."<BR>
> Texan, interrupting: "Only one hundred?"<BR>
> Aussie farmer: ".. square miles".<BR>
<BR>
There are Texans who'd sneer at that. Try the King(?) Ranch in Texas. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 17:21:03 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller mailing list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 12:20 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: England<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk><BR>
><BR>
> >The last successful invasion of Britain was the<BR>
> >German invasion of the Channel Islands in 1940, which<BR>
><BR>
> >they held for the rest of WWII. England as a whole<BR>
> has<BR>
> >not been conquered by a foreign power since 1066<BR>
> >(William of Orange notwithstanding), nor have any of<BR>
> >the subsequent British Unions involving England.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, let's not forget the Argentine invasion of the<BR>
> Falkland Islands,<BR>
<BR>
He did say "England as a whole".<BR>
And England refers only to that part of Britain that is not Scotland or<BR>
Wales<BR>
<BR>
> which I understand are treated as an<BR>
> integral part of Britain, just like the Orkneys and<BR>
> Channel Islands.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. The Falklands are a protectorate or something similar.<BR>
And the Channel Islands and the Orkney's aren't part of Britain either.<BR>
<BR>
The Orkney's are however part of the United Kingdom.<grin><BR>
<BR>
> That the invasion was not successful can be credited<BR>
> -- as usual -- to the United States.  They'd still be<BR>
> speaking Spanish in the Falklands if the United States<BR>
> hadn't violated its treaty obligations to Argentina<BR>
> and its own Monroe Doctrine to supply the British with<BR>
> intelligence in the form of intercepted communications<BR>
> and space imaging.<BR>
<BR>
The US _also_ had a treaty obligation to provide military assistance to the<BR>
UK when Argentina invaded the Falklands,  and Thatcher kept reminding Reagan<BR>
of that.<BR>
<BR>
As it was the US did the best they could to stay on-side with the other<BR>
American nations by not actually<BR>
comitting troops to attack Argentina, thereby breaking both treaties<BR>
<BR>
They also provided intelligence to the UK as they were required to do under<BR>
a completely seperate treaty.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, quite a lot of the military intelligence the UK used in that scrap came<BR>
from their own resources, including several SAS teams that spent most of the<BR>
war _inside_ Argentina, giving early warning of aircraft waves launched from<BR>
Argentine bases.<BR>
<BR>
Not that the US cares about those upholding treaties when it really wants to<BR>
act, as can be seen from the Bay of Pigs, to the invasion of Grenada, and<BR>
it's actions in Columbia, Venezuala, Chile, and El Salvador.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 17:26:23 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
> It wasn't just a personal whim of Washington's to support creating a<BR>
> republic and not a monarchy.  He knew what he'd been fighting, and he<BR>
> knew what the American people wanted: freedom, specifically and<BR>
> especially freedom from European class stratification and all of the<BR>
> political and legal abuses of a monarchical system.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this is incorrect.<BR>
<BR>
George Washington, or Adam Weishaupt, as he was known in Bavaria,  cared not<BR>
a fig for theAmerican people, and merely wanted to consolidate the Golden<BR>
Dawn's power base in the New World.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
Hail Eris!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 22:33:05 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Flash!<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone want the stats for the gunned variant of Santas <BR>
Sleigh? somebody posted it to the TML ages ago<BR>
and I did a variant based on the Samurai Cat story<BR>
"Christmas Eve Berlin 1944"<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 22:33:13 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: War of 1812 (Getting a Bit Silly)<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> AFAIK the RN has never used Dragons? Dragoons maybe, but not Dragons...<BR>
<BR>
"They may have Claymores and Dragons, but _we_ have Bolos and Ogres!"<BR>
<BR>
(Sorry, but I've gone through about 6,000 posts since my promise<BR>
yesterday to find all the keyboard kills since late October 1999.)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 22:43:13 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: The US and Treaty Obligations (was: Re: England)<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Not that the US cares about those upholding treaties when it really wants to<BR>
> act, as can be seen from the Bay of Pigs, to the invasion of Grenada, and<BR>
> it's actions in Columbia, Venezuala, Chile, and El Salvador.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, the government of El Salvador _wanted_ our advisors!  (You may be<BR>
thinking of US support of the Contras in Nicaragua.  That was screwed<BR>
up, no matter _how_ you look at it.  On-again, off-again, with side<BR>
trips selling military hardware to Iran for the money to turn Contra<BR>
support on-again, when Congress had turned it off-again....)<BR>
<BR>
We _even_ cut off air support to the Cuban exiles in the Bay of Pigs,<BR>
mere hours before they landed!<BR>
<BR>
And Columbia is a city in Missouri!  AFAIK, the Federal government has<BR>
no _treaty_ obligations with Missouri.  (Yes, I _know_ you were<BR>
referring to Colombia in South America.)<BR>
<BR>
Uhhhh...I think you got me on a couple of the others, though....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:53:32 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Santa in the 3rd Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
>HOW in the universe does Santa manage the logistics of such a vast<BR>
empire???  >I have enough trouble figuring out how he covers 20th century<BR>
Terra.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, each world has its own Santa designate...<BR>
<BR>
As for today, it's easy to explain how he covers the world. If you look at<BR>
the Christmas traditions of non-English-speaking cultures, you'll find that<BR>
his delivery day is *not* Christmas Eve! Eg, in Germany, he comes on December<BR>
6th. (My mother came from Germany to Canada when she was 19, several years<BR>
before I came along, but I was raised with German Christmas traditions.)<BR>
I read recently that in Guatemala, he comes on the 25th (and the kids don't<BR>
get to open their presents until New Years arrives.) Meanwhile, for the<BR>
entire Eastern Orthodox bloc (which is most of eastern Europe), they're still<BR>
on the Julian calendar for religious observances, so their Christmas isn't<BR>
until the second week of January on our calendar -- lots of time to do the<BR>
deliveries there. And I would imagine that cultures that don't celebrate<BR>
Christmas aren't even on his schedule -- India and China, for instance, <BR>
which together make up 1/3 of the planet's population.<BR>
<BR>
Seems to me, all he does on Christmas Eve is the English-speaking world...<BR>
(Though that in itself is a daunting task...) <BR>
<BR>
Happy Holidays, everybody!<BR>
<BR>
- -- glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 18:55:15 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
> Empire and Commonwealth?  Weren't they starting to<BR>
> teach Japanese in the public schools in India and<BR>
> Australia by 1941 so that their children would have<BR>
> some chance to get ahead in the new world order?<BR>
<BR>
No, they were teaching it for the same reason they were teaching German in<BR>
England in 1941, so you could understand your enemy, and insult him better<BR>
<BR>
> The colonial forces did not even slow the Japanese<BR>
> advance into the parts of Asia that they conquered<BR>
<BR>
That's not true. The Japanese never succesfully invaded a location that had<BR>
any colonial forces to speak of, except Burma  (which was contested all the<BR>
way and was never "held" by the Japanese in  the sense that  there was<BR>
always fighting going on in. it and te front line never remained static for<BR>
very long ) Singapore (which was a badly bungled defence, and didn't have<BR>
many troops anyway) and Hong Kong (6,000 British troops, badly bungled<BR>
defence again.) .<BR>
<BR>
Most of the places the Japanese invaded had either already been stripped to<BR>
support the war in Europe, or never had any forces in the first place, the<BR>
only place with significant troop concentrations (other than China) was the<BR>
150, 000 US troops MacArthur had in the Phillipines<BR>
<BR>
An example I have detailed knowledge of,  Java, which is now part of<BR>
Indonesia. That was a Dutch colony, and my wife's grandfather was the<BR>
governor of a large part of it. The largest military unit he had on hand<BR>
during the Japanese invasion was the ceremonial brass band, and while they<BR>
and the Ache peoples were fiercely proud and were willing to fight to the<BR>
death, he managed to convince them that they would better serve the crown by<BR>
dissappearig into the hills and staying alive until after the Japanese were<BR>
defeated. He surrendered,  and spent the war in a Japanese POW camp, which<BR>
meant the majority of the native civilian population survived the war<BR>
without many problems.<BR>
<BR>
> (nor did U.S. forces in the Philippines).  India was<BR>
> saved by geography.   Japanese supply lines through<BR>
> China and Burma were too long and too easily<BR>
> interrupted to make an invasion of India realistic.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that you really haven't read much about the Second World War based<BR>
on your comments so far.<BR>
<BR>
The Japanese never held enough of China to make an invasion of India through<BR>
it possible, and Burma was never completely taken, so there was never any<BR>
chance of the Japanese being able to launch an invasion of India. In fact,<BR>
the troops in India were more worried about the civil disobedience of<BR>
Ghandi's  Congress party than the Japanese.<BR>
<BR>
> Australia was likewise too far, with too much water<BR>
> and too many American warships in between.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, American warships didn't help until the US had some in the area, and<BR>
the invasion of Australia was largely avoided by a stout defence of New<BR>
Guinea by Australian, New Zealand, and British troops.<BR>
<BR>
There was reportedly at least one hostile landing on the Australian coast,<BR>
though they were so ill-prepared for conditions in Australia's outback they<BR>
withdrew in poor order suffering many casualties from heat exhaustion and<BR>
wildlife, without facing anything more than a single Aborgine family, who<BR>
they couldn't catch.<BR>
<BR>
> Colonial forces protected Britain directly in the<BR>
> African and European theaters, but certainly did not<BR>
> pull the mother country's butt out of the fire.<BR>
<BR>
They certainly made a valuable contribution to the Battle of Britain, along<BR>
with the Free Polish and one or two Americans. Examine the numbers on the<BR>
Battle of Britain honour roll one day. Or watch the credits at the end of<BR>
the film.<BR>
<BR>
> Politics and stupidity in the German high command<BR>
> helped Britain much more than the colonial forces ever<BR>
> did (and, arguably, at least as much as U.S.<BR>
> involvement).<BR>
<BR>
Based on the documentary evidence, one could also say that politics and<BR>
stupidity in the US high command hindered Britain just as much, but that<BR>
wouldn't be nice. All sides had their share of stupidities, and I don't<BR>
believe the German stupidities significantly altered the course of the war,<BR>
except perhaps the decision to persecute Jews, which indirectly lead to the<BR>
Allies developing nuclear weapons before the Germans.<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, once the Hitler/Stalin  alliance broke down<BR>
<BR>
Which it was always going to, neither side intended to keep to it.<BR>
<BR>
> the British reverted to their<BR>
> usual policy of fighting the Germans until the<BR>
> shedding of the very last drop of Russian blood.<BR>
<BR>
You are aware of the sacrifices made by the Archangel convoys that helped<BR>
keep the Russian war machine oiled ?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the usual policy for the British is to fight the French, not the<BR>
Germans.<BR>
<BR>
> (Politics and stupidity:  Not letting Guderian finish<BR>
> off the British forces at Dunkirk, but holding him<BR>
> back so the Luftwaffe could practice dive-bombing;<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, but while Dunkirk was a great morale building excercise, and was<BR>
hyped extravagantly by the British,  more troops and equipment were<BR>
extracted from other locations, it wasn't a decisive decision, and<BR>
Guderian's panzers would then have been exposed to naval gunfire, which was<BR>
about the only thing available to the British at the time that could have<BR>
hurt them, thus ruining the myth of the "undefeatable" panzers much quicker.<BR>
<BR>
Holding back Rommel's panzers from the beachead in 1945 was much more<BR>
decisive, though ultimately even that wouldn't have prevented an Allied<BR>
victory.<BR>
<BR>
> failing to try to destroy the Royal Navy during the<BR>
> Battle of Britain;<BR>
<BR>
They weren't capable of doing so. To attack the Royal Navy, the Luftwaffe<BR>
would have had to either attack ships at sea, and they were not equipped<BR>
with many planes that were capable of such attacks, or attempted to bomb<BR>
Scapa Flow, which would have required them to fly right across England, with<BR>
almost no fighter support,  bringing _all_ of Fighter Command into the<BR>
action into the bargain<BR>
<BR>
The silly decision in the Battle of Britain was to stop attacking airfields<BR>
and to start attacking civilian targets, but then the Luftwaffe didn't know<BR>
how stretched Fighter Command was.<BR>
<BR>
> failing even to attempt to seize the North Sea<BR>
<BR>
Again, the German Navy was incapable of doing this. It was hard enough for<BR>
them to get their battlecruisers into the open sea, let alone take on the<BR>
Royal Navy in a stand-up fight.<BR>
<BR>
>; not even attempting to invade Britain<BR>
> (which would have necessitated neutralizing the Royal<BR>
> Navy);<BR>
<BR>
That was actually a _good_ decision.<BR>
<BR>
The Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe would have been totally decimated attempting<BR>
to do so.<BR>
<BR>
And they would not have succeeded. Despite the general lack of materiel in<BR>
England, the lack of adequate transports and the bad weather that actualy<BR>
occurred during the periods in which the invasion was possible, would have<BR>
left the German invasion force almost completely cut off, and most of them<BR>
would have surrendered. his would have seriously weakened Germany's ability<BR>
to hold their existing territiry, and might even have precipitated a Russian<BR>
invasion of Austria.<BR>
<BR>
See the book "Operation Sealowe" by Richard Prentice.<BR>
<BR>
>and opening the front against the Soviet Union<BR>
> before defeating Britain.)<BR>
<BR>
This was a mistake. However, as Hitler still believed England would see<BR>
sense and join Germany in ruling the world, and neither side intended to<BR>
keep the treaty, it's understandable.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:21:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Geog<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>They should know what the six flags over Texas are, and why they are<BR>
>>>important.<BR>
>><BR>
>>"Cause dude!  That's where the roller coasters are!!!"<BR>
><BR>
> Try the six constituent states of the Republic of Tejas.<BR>
<BR>
Huh? I've never been in Texas, but what I'd always been told was that<BR>
it was the six different flags that have flown over the place. Starting<BR>
with the Spanish, then Mexican, Repulic of Texas, US, Confederate, and<BR>
US again (or something like that).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:25:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
><BR>
>>Or those of us that have spent a good bit of time <BR>
>>walking through hills and hollows.  In some parts of <BR>
>>the US, knowing where, and how, to ford a branch is <BR>
>>still an important skill.  But, heck, I bet most of <BR>
>>you have never seen a small stream called a branch!  <BR>
><BR>
> Didn't everybody (in the US, anyway) have to learn to<BR>
> read USGS topographical maps in 9th grade Earth<BR>
> Science?  Or was my Earth Science teacher (who was, by<BR>
> the way, named Mr. Branch -- Col., USAF, ret.), who<BR>
> went over that subject until all of us got it, really<BR>
> as crazy as everyone said?  <BR>
<BR>
Sorry, we didn't get taught that in school. I learned it in Boy Scouts.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, in 7th grade, our chemistry & Physics teacher<BR>
*really* got our attention when it came to nuclear energy. Seems he'd<BR>
been on one of the ships at Bikini Atoll! <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:30:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Personally, though, if I were to pick any proto-cyberpunk authors, they<BR>
> would be Dick, Sturgeon and Ellison, and they would not be picked based on<BR>
> subject matter as much how they approached that subject matter.<BR>
<BR>
Try Vernor Vinge (read "True Names" then check the copyright). Ryan(?)<BR>
with "The Adolesence of P1" (a network worm before PCs!). Delaney had<BR>
"jacking in" in "Nova". And so on.<BR>
<BR>
If you can find copies of both, it's interesting to compare "When<BR>
H.AR.L.I.E. was One", with "When H.AR.L.I.E. was One, Release 2.0". In<BR>
between them, Gerrold learned to program (he used to be a regular on<BR>
the Turbo Pascal Forum on CompuServe!). And unlike some authors, he<BR>
wasn't afraid to admit he'd blown it big time thru ignorance. Thus the<BR>
second version of the book. Which is *considerably* different. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 21:36:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
<BR>
For lack of anything better to use as background noise, I was watching<BR>
the Battlestar Galactica marathon on the Sci-Fi channel earlier today.<BR>
And I had a silly thought.<BR>
<BR>
*Could* the BG background be salavaged from all the bad science and<BR>
worse writing and turned into a campaign?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 02:43:59 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Geog<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/24/99 10:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Huh? I've never been in Texas, but what I'd always been told was that<BR>
 it was the six different flags that have flown over the place. Starting<BR>
 with the Spanish, then Mexican, Repulic of Texas, US, Confederate, and<BR>
 US again (or something like that). >><BR>
<BR>
that's the way this yankee learned it....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1578<BR>
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